Is it really anyone’s business??

Over the time of this blog, I’ve been fighting with marriagecoach (John) about whether it’s ok to have anal and oral sex.

My position has been that it’s not, because marital sex is meant to be unitive and procreative, and anything that interrupts those God-given purposes is not to be used.  John’s position is that it livens up marriage by making it more exciting, etc.

But some events this week have gotten me to thinking.  NO, not to change my mind.  But here it is:  Is it anyone’s business but yours what you do behind closed doors??? 

The answer is, as long as it’s legal, it’s between you and your maker.  When and how does that change?  When you make it public.  When you tell someone you’re a proponent of it.  Keep it to yourself, folks, I don’t want to know about it.  I have my beliefs and I know what my faith tells me.  You’re free to disagree, but if you want to shout it out, I’ll have to give argument for the truth.  I’m not going to hell for anyone, and if I know or see a wrong, I’m going to get involved to stop it.

A case in point in the public eye this week, witness Anthony Weiner, Democrat Congressman from New York.  Made his junk public.  Got caught.  If Mr. Weiner wanted to go show his junk to some girl in private, and is discreet and doesn’t get caught? It’s between him and God.  Now, the whole world knows what a weiner Weiner is.

Folks, keep private stuff to yourself.  John kept asking me to go ask a priest if it was ok to have anal sex.  I kept saying I don’t need to go ask, because I’m not into that and  neither is my wife.  But when you ask what the Catholic Church says about something, and you get the answer, that is the answer.  Truth is black and white.  What’s not so black and white is whether we follow or obey the truth.

I personally do not care what people do in private.  It’s none of my business.  But when they do what ought to be done in private in the public arena, then it is time to speak out.


Posted on June 9, 2011, in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 27 Comments.

  1. short little rebel

    Hi David,

    I think the difficulty comes from the fact that you are an author of a taboo free zone. John specializes in sex and so feels it is his job to help couples out that way. I don’t think he is intentionally trying to… encourage people into sin. Everyone thinks differently about sex & religion. For most people, sex is a private matter. But this is not a private forum. I don’t think it is fair, or possible, to tell people in a forum like this what they can or can’t say. Short of actually being disrepectful or ugly, this forum prides itself on the edgy, taboo-free aspect of itself.

    John seems to me to be strong willed and has put quite a bit of thought into his ideas. I doubt very much that religious articles will change his mind. Especially arguments between the Catholic version vs. the Protestant version of Christianity. We need to focus on the Christian part. As long as we serve Jesus and God, then let THAT be the focus of the friendship.

    Btw, no one goes to hell because of their sins. If that were true, we’d all go to hell. Jesus died for our sins- all of them.

  2. Hey Shortie
    Thanbks for coming to my defense. My argument with David and more specificallyt the catholic church is their adding to the bible (which is forbidden in the bible in numerous places) and calling it equal to the Bible.

    The Bible is explicit in what is and is not sexual sin. I have a degree in Bible and used to be a baptist minister. The churches have done a great disservice to their congregations in general and to women in particular
    teachig that sex is bad, dirty and wrong and that good girls don’t do it. They neglect to teach all of the positive commands about sex in the bible.

    Now anal sex is only forbidden to homosexual men and not to heterosexual couples. No where in the old or new testament does it forbid
    masturbation and certainly not oral sex all of which David claims are sins.

    He rererred me to Humanae Vitae as proof since there is no proof in the bible and low and behold it was not found there either Then he pointed me to catholic writing that was not scripture called the Didache and low and behold it was not found there either.. In fact, he can not show me in any printed teaching of the church where anal or oral sex is forbidden and yet he insists that it is sin according to the catholic church,
    It seems to me if that is their position, there should be printed matter
    forbidding it to catholics. He speaks for the catholic church but without anything to back it.

    I speak boldly based upon the bible and trying to undo the damage that the church as done to their congregations. Many women once they are ready to embrace their sexuality are often ruined for life by the early bad teachings
    in churches. David’s is the WORST. By the way, in David’s defense, he allows that it is not sin for him to perform oral sex on his wife, but that her retuning the favor is actually sin. Go figure.

  3. Thanks, SLR.

    As I’ve stated in quite a few posts, I’m not trying to change people’s minds about anything. Even about something John and I agree on-abortion. What I am out here presenting is the Catholic position on whatever subject it might be. And as an American, I wouldn’t dare tell someone what they can or can’t say.
    What I believe is that people should be informed of all aspects of the subject they are looking at. If someone’s reading your post, or mine, they’re interested. So to say that x is ok without showing the pros and cons, whether they be religious or otherwise, isn’t fair. My point is to show ‘the other side’, and let folks make their own opinion. My objection to John’s arguments is that he says that what I’ve said is not the Catholic opinion (when it is), and then represents as Catholic positions which aren’t. I’m just correcting a wrong. It would be like me putting words in your mouth, misrepresenting your point of view, and someone else correcting me.
    John claims to be knowledgeable about Christianity, and he may be when it comes to the Baptist faith. And again, I’m not saying he’s not entitled to his opinion. But when he misrepresents the Catholic faith, when he’s uninformed, is wrong. John’s opinion is that Catholics aren’t even Christian! He’s entitled to it, but I’ll stand here and show otherwise.
    Christians serve Jesus and God different ways. That’s all fine and dandy. But most people have no clue (even many Catholics) about what Catholicism really is, and if they care to know, I’m there to give it to them.

    I disagree that people don’t go to hell for their sins. In my faith, though, it’s not a sin if you’re honestly ignorant of its sinfulness, if you don’t do it deliberately, or if it’s not serious matter. All three of those conditions must exist for the sinner to go to hell.

    Let’s take an example-I have a plan tonight to go to the pub and have a couple drinks before going home. I have two, and then meet someone I know and stay for a couple more. I get too drunk to drive home, so I give my keys to my friend, and he takes me home. Have I committed any sin?

    Scenario #2, I show up at the bar, meeting a friend, my ‘designated driver’. I hand him my keys, and proceed to have four drinks. My friend then drives me home. Have I committed any sin here?

    In the first case, no, I haven’t committed a sin, because I didn’t get drunk deliberately, whereas in the second case, I did, because my plan was to have too many to drive safely home.

    In another situation, let’s say a woman gets pregnant and has an abortion. Sinful, to you and me, and in the eyes of God, right? She killed another human being. A few months later, she feels remorse, vows to never do the same thing again. If she’s Catholic, she has the sacrament of reconciliation, she can go discuss the problem with a priest, and be absolved of said sin. If she’s not Catholic, she can ask God to forgive her. God is merciful, and if she asks, she will receive.

    It’s unrepentance that gets you to hell. You’re right, Jesus did die for all our sins. That doesn’t mean we don’t have some work to do…

  4. short little rebel

    @ John,

    Well, I sure am no Biblical scholar! Especially concerning what it says about sex. In fact, I have never personally read ANYTHING about sex in there. Certainly not the New Testment (especially the first four books which tend to be my focus). I seem to remember a prophet of old, when talking about the future, mentioning homosexuality as one of the ‘abominations’ he saw. The way I figured that was that it was his opinion in the matter. His vision seemed to be more of a list of things he saw and recorded to allow us to see the end coming. Homosexuality was one of the things he saw. It wasn’t normal for those times. But when he saw into the future, wah-lah! He saw men loving men and women loving women. But the abomination point seemed more of a side comment. But I would have to find it and read it again- it has been many years.

    My basic feeling is that no matter how closely you try to follow God’s laws, you will fail. I’m quite ok with that idea. God certainly loves me no matter what. Our sin seems rather unimportant to God concerning how much He loves one person vs. another. Look at David. He was the worst of the worst. But he was God’s favorite. And why? Because David LOVED God. He loved God so much that he literally danced in the streets- his passion for God overwhelmed him that much. His wife laughed at David and God struck her barren on the spot. Remember? And yet, I’ll bet that she didn’t have any kind of deviant sexual behavior behind her like David did.

    When I see my children, I understand why God is like that. He make us in His image, all right! I love my children’s love for me. That is by far the best part of having kids. They love you so much. It is intoxicating. Our love for God is equally intoxicating for Him.

    My thoughts to David, or to anyone for that matter, are: just focus on loving God and being happy in His presence. Accept that you sin. Don’t focus on the actual sins. Do your best to serve Him. But mostly, love Him and you will be fine.

  5. You see this is my problem wth David, obfuscation. He nelgects the issue that he brought up in the beginning of this post and then neglects to answer my ciritique of him and the catholic church. Any BTW I never said that catholics are not christian but that they are more of a cult.

    Again, David, provide written proof for you claims of sexual sin as mandated by the Catholic church. I am not going to take your word for it. I grew up catholic.

  6. Hey, John,
    Welcome to my post. I didn’t think you needed defense, I wasn’t attacking you. I think you’re wrong, and so does the Catholic Church, but what’s that to you???
    Regarding your remarks,
    1. Does the Bible also forbid removing from the Bible?
    2. The Catholic Church has never taught that sex is bad. That one you have to prove.
    3. You, as a Baptist, choose to limit yourself to the Bible, when the Bible itself tells us that we are to rely on Apostolic Tradition, and Apostolic Teaching as well. That’s you’re perrogative, not mine. I know that Christianity was spoken and taught orally before it was written down. Humanae Vitae defines for you what sex is for:
    What are the important points of Humanae
    Vitae? Marital relations, when as man and wife the
    two chastely unite and by which human life is
    transmitted, is “good and worthy of human dignity.”
    The most important point of the encyclical is: each
    and every marital act must remain open to life. This
    means that a couple may never separate the two
    aspects of sexual intercourse. Conjugal love is both:
    1) Procreative and
    2) Unitive,
    and vice versa – unitive and procreative. The two
    inherently form the marital act. (HV 11, 12)
    This means that any sex act that is not both unitive (bonding) and procreative (open to creation of life) is forbidden. I get it that you don’t think so, but there it is-the Church is against oral sex and anal sex because they are not open to life. Aslo against birth control.
    The Didache Chapter 5 para 1 The way of death, on the other hand, is this: It is evil and accursed—murders, adulteries, lust, illicit sex, thefts, idolatries, magical arts, sorceries, robberies, false testimonies, hypocrisy,double-heartedness,deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness—those who do not fear God.
    Highlighted are the relevant phrase.

    4. John, I haven’t discussed what my wife and I do in our bedroom. And again, I’m not here to discuss the merits or lack of them of what you’re saying. I AM presenting a different way though, because for you to say these things to people who don’t have the proper formation of mind is sinful, in and of itself. It’s right there in the Didache, too.

    People are free to do what they want, and I’m not here to condemn them. If they make known something which I consider wrong, and which my faith, which I know to be the whole truth, says is wrong, I am bound to say so. What they do with that information is up to them.

  7. Hey Shortie
    I have to respectfully disagree with you here although I appreciate your tone.
    You might find it interesting to view my post entitled Sex And The Bible. I can give you all the references to sex in the bible if you are interested.

    I also have to disagree on not concentrating on the individual sins because how else do you hope to improve unless you deal with your individual sin?

    People have a real hunger to know what is and is not sexual sin according to the bible. I taught a high school sunday school class on this subject and the kids ate it up, especially the part that masturbation is not a sin. Their parents of course told them that it was or implied it.

    Blessings on you and yours

  8. By the way, I also have to deal with this matter in my practice, particularly with women because they have often been mislead about what is sexual sin and then she denies her husband based upon this erroneous belief.

  9. short little rebel

    David, I don’t think we disagree about going to hell for our sins. We don’t. We are denied everlasting life if we don’t believe in Jesus. I’m not sure if repentance is even necessary. I mean, simply believing in Jesus requires a certain amount of repentance- but it is general in nature- not for specific sins, I don’t think. Remember the criminal on the cross with Jesus? He just said, ‘Remember me in heaven’. And Jesus said he would. Period. That simple. I’m not sure if that criminal had time to be repentant of his actual sins. He just knew Jesus was the son of God and that he was the portal to heaven. But there is no doubt that unrepentant people will not choose Jesus in the first place. I just don’t think the specifics of the sin matter.

    John & David. It kind of pains me to see two good Christians fight about what I think of as details. Let’s face it, when Jesus was here in person, He simply did not mention these details whatsoever. He formed the New Covenant between God and all mankind. He overturned things from the old testament. He seemed to get irritated at people who focused on technicalities (like working on the Sabbath or eating pork). He told them that they had missed the point. Not to chastise such well read gentlemen as yourselves, but perhaps you guys spend a little more time on these fussy details of Christianity than you should.

    Look, I know this is just a blog, but people read it. Lots of people. If we are successful, hopefully thousands of people. Christians should not alienate other people who are thirsting for knowledge with in-fighting- no matter how noble your cause may seem to you. People on the outside looking in might say to themselves: Gee, that’s why I don’t want to get involved in religion.

    Jesus spoke non-stop about forgiveness, giving and helping. Do you kind of know where I am going with this???

  10. John, you know the saying “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” This applies to you here. If you don’t know how to read plain language, so be it. I’m glad you didn’t capitalize the c. There are lots of catholics out there, but not so many Catholics.

    By the way, cult: a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. Yay! You got one right!

    Again, John, I don’t care what you think the Catholic Church teaches, but for anyone who cares to read and know, it’s all right there. And it’s important that people who care about their faith know what it actually teaches…

  11. short little rebel

    Well, John, it’s ok that we don’t agree on a few things! It might get people to talking if we agreed on everything! 😉

  12. David you are doing a huge proof texting job and interpreting a whole lot (misinterpreting). If the catholic church says that anal and oral sex is sin, then they should have it in writing and clearly stated because many people are not as learned as you or I or Shortie.
    Show me the written proof that this is the position of the catholic church.

  13. SLR, I don’t have anything personal against John, and we can debate all day. I just want the facts to be straight.

    FWIW, hell is not necessarily the fire and brimstone so many say it is. I know it as the turning away from the love of God-that’s the only unforgiveable sin, if you die in that state.

  14. short little rebel

    *oh, sigh* I will you gentlemen now…best to both of you..

  15. Which is why it’s better to get free advice from a trusted priest than paid advice from a name with letters after it in a phone book…

    The Church for 1500 years before and 500 years after the Protestant reformation encouraged families to have children. They taught that this is what sex is for. It didn’t talk about how to do it, for sure. It left that to those who were doing it.

  16. short little rebel

    I’m sure there truly are a lot of messed up people out there concerning sex. I respect the work you do with them. I appreciate that you, having been molested yourself, have a certain passion for the topic. Many therapists go into their line of work based on the knowlege gained through their own journeys. It is, thankfully, an area that is not a concern in my own life.

  17. John, I also want you to understand, again, that I understand your beef with the Church, regarding your personal treatment, and as I’ve said before, I’m sorry.

  18. adulteries, lust, illicit sex,
    David you highlighted these words and from what i understand you interpret these as forbidding oral and anal sex, on what planet? This does not to me or anyone else interpret that these items pulled out mean that the bible forbids anal or oral sex. Anal sex is forbidden to homosexual men both in the Old and New Testament and no where is it mentioned that it is forbidden to hetero couples although God forbids animal sex between men and women.

    I need to see written proof from a catholic piece of literature that their position is as you say. You have steadfastly refused that and expect me to take your word for it, which I don’t.

  19. Well putting my abuse aside, I would not accept marriage counseling from a priest because he has never been married.
    Talk about completely unqualified.

    Then you contradict yourself by stating that they did not talk about how to do it for sure but left it those doing it. This is not what you have been saying, you are stating that the catholic church forbids a wife to give her husband oral sex or anal sex. Show me written proof.

  20. Marriage is a spiritual thing, much more than a physical thing, and who better to go to than someone who’s been to *as much schooling as you have, more than likely*, someone who is spiritually married to God??? Sorry, that bird don’t fly, John.

    John, the church has never gotten into specifics-it tells us THAT the world was created, not HOW. Same is true for your sexuality. The Church tells us in no uncertain terms that sex is for procreation and marital unity, and if either are not present at a particular time of sexual union, then it is illicit. You may need it, but I don’t need a billboard to tell me *ANAL SEX CANNOT HAVE AS ITS RESULT THE BIRTH OF A CHILD*.
    You beleive recreational sex is ok, does that mean all recreational sex? And who determines if it is ok or if it’s not ok?
    John, why don’t you just be quiet and go ahead and do what you do anyway? I’m sure you will answer for it somewhere down the road, as will I for my actions.

  21. John, I wonder the same about you-what planet are you living on. Any sex for the sake of your own selfish pleasure is considered lustful, and illicit in the eyes of the biggest church on the planet. Who are you to speak for *anyone else*???

    Once again, the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus produced a Church, not a book. The Bible is not the only resource for Christianity, though it is the only one Protestants adhere to. I don’t limit my faith to a book.

    If you’re that interested in finding what you’re looking for, I’m confident you can. I did, and showed it to you. Your choice to accept or not. As I said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. I’ve done what I can to inform you, and you choose to stay uninformed.

  22. Most people have sex for their pleasure and for that of their mate. That is the point. Then they decide when and if to have kids and use sex to procreate. You have a very twisted and distorted view and I am done commenting with you. You have failed my one simple request, show me in writing where the catholic church clearly delineates that oral and anal sex is sin between married couples, not just your interpretation which I reject.

  23. What most people do, and what’s actually the correct way, are, very often, two different things. Lots of people smoke, does that make it right? Sex has two purposes-to strengthen the marital bond and to procreate. That’s what God gave us sex for. *Note: God gave us lots of things that we misuse.*

    My view, the Catholic Church view, is very simple and straight forward. Humans choose to complicate it.

    John, if what the Catholic Church says about oral and anal sex are not enough for you, it’s no wonder you aren’t a Catholic. Or even a catholic.

    Oh, by the way, do you feel that bondage and submission is an acceptible form of sex play between a husband and a wife? And is it ok to fantasize about another person while having sex with your spouse?

    What is your position on alcohol use? And where is that in the Bible?

  24. Again with the obfuscation. I am not willing to accept your interpretation of what the catholic church states as sin, I want to see it in writing. I suspect that there is no such writing and that is why you continue to obfuscate.
    Show me the writing clearly defining oral and anal sex as sinful between husband and wife.;

  25. I’ve already led the horse to water, John. You say you’re thirsty, but yet you won’t drink. I did the best I could.

    So, in your opinion, is it ok to tie up your partner as part of sex? It’s not explicitly forbidden in the Bible. Neither is fantasizing about someone while you have sex with your spouse.

    You’re pretty good about not answering questions, and also about deflecting the answers when they fly your way, John.

    I’m also still waiting on your explanation of John 6. It seems all you want to do is talk about anal and oral sex. There are much more important things in life, John…

  26. At least you are finally honest there is no such writing forbidding oral or anal sex in the church. Then you tell me to shut up. I am not trying to justify my behavior to anyone but trying to guide people who want real answers as to what is and is not sexual sin. I trust the bible for the answers and you do not.
    I am done with you.

  27. John, good! I don’t have to justify my behavior to anyone, and neither do you. To God, yes. But you mischaracterize what I’ve said-I said there is nothing explicit. But there is writing showing that it is wrong for a Catholic who wants to follow his faith. And don’t count it out, I’m still researching.

    And again, another mischaracterization. I do, very much, trust the Bible, but I know there’s a lot more than just the Bible alone-two words which don’t appear together anywhere in that book.

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